The UPF full professor of Political Science, Carles Ramió, has published La universitat, a la cruïlla - The University, at the crossroads. The work is set to kick off the UPF Knowledge project. The book addresses the main challenges and limitations of Catalan universities and offers proposals for the future.

At what crossroads are universities today?

For the first time, universities find themselves in a situation in which their own survival is at stake. The transformations taking place in the world are really profound; economic, technological and social changes are, for the first time, causing universities, which enjoy a certain monopolistic situation, especially the public ones, to encounter serious competition from the outside. I am referring to MOOCs, external universities that accredit degrees, large corporations such as Google or Amazon, large companies that can create their own universities, and so on. It goes without saying that this global change does not affect universities alone. It may affect other institutions and organizations that have an intermediary role with society. The university is an institution that acts as an intermediary between students and formal knowledge, and it is clear that new technologies may lead these intermediary organizations to disappear.

The university is an institution that acts as an intermediary between students and formal knowledge, and it is clear that new technologies may lead these intermediary organizations to disappear

So, according to what you are saying, are public universities rather than private ones at the crossroads?

I think that these changes may also affect private universities, because they have the same problems as public universities. The challenges affect public and private institutions alike, and who knows if perhaps the first to fall will be the private ones. Now, I am a great advocate of the public university; my utmost interest is that training and research should have a strong public component with public values, and I am particularly concerned with the future and the challenges facing the public university.

In this context, what should universities do to prevent these threats?

We still don’t know what internal management model universities must have in the future, because we cannot accurately foresee the forthcoming changes. However, we do know that the current management system is very rigid, cumbersome and bureaucratic, in the bad sense of the word, and so we certainly won’t be able to adapt quickly to the changes that are to come. In the short term, we need to provide ourselves with greater flexibility that gives us the ability to adapt, as well as a simplification of structures and management models. UPF has made some changes in this line, such as merging departments with faculties. The former rector, Jaume Casals, always said that simpler and more understandable universities are needed, because today there are still lecturers who don’t understand how the university works. Moreover, society in general is wary of organizations that have overly complex structures that are difficult to understand. Simplicity and flexibility are two essential elements in order to survive.

Society in general is wary of organizations that have overly complex structures that are difficult to understand. Simplicity and flexibility are two essential elements in order to survive

Over the past decades, we have witnessed the birth of new universities, but in your book you warn of the risk of some of them disappearing or merging.

The book begins in an almost dramatic or apocalyptic way, announcing that 90% of universities may disappear over the next twenty years. And this idea has obviously been the subject of media headlines; but I want to make it clear that this phrase was not coined by me but by specialists in foresight. I think that the percentage is obviously exaggerated because, to start with, we do not know how many universities there are in the world: it seems there are between 25,000 and 40,000, and 90% of them will not disappear in two decades. But, there are many that might disappear after their existence had been assured for centuries and centuries.

You often speak of the Portuguese model as being a model of success.

In order to compete internationally, and rector Oriol Amat said so in a speech he gave, you have two options: you either put more money into the university system conditioned by incentives - and it must be said that the Catalan universities perform well in this regard with magnificent results and with great success-, and this would be the French model, or you endow the universities with greater autonomy and flexibility in how they organize themselves.

A university can be organized as an assembly-based, democratic and corporate system, or according to a meritocratic form of governance. The Portuguese model envisages that each university can choose how it is governed. We, on the other hand, currently have neither the French model of financial injection nor the managerial flexibility of the Portuguese model. We have made progress in some issues, but we have no options in the legislative framework to move towards greater flexibility in the governance model. We therefore need to achieve greater funding, but through incentives and with accountability.

What is your appraisal of the new Organic Law of the University System (LOSU)?

Well, the law itself is a major breakthrough, because it updates a law that was already twenty years old. For example, employment contracts are recognized and are granted the same rights, to the extent that the conditions for taking up the position of rector are relaxed. In addition, minister Joan Subirats is highly sensitive to the fact that universities must not only limit their role to formal education and formal degrees, but there must be lifelong training for people, a chain of micro-training courses that must be offered by universities. Regarding this point, we mustn’t lose sight of the contracting demographic pyramid. Conversely, the law is excessively conservative because there are no innovative elements in the system of governance. The changes that exist in this field, and there are some, are very insignificant, because the change in the years of a rector’s mandate or the conditions for becoming rector do not change the corporative or ‘assemblyist’ logic, nor does it provide greater autonomy or flexibility.

Is there a dichotomy between research and teaching?

There shouldn’t be. They must be compatible, and one of the positive things about the public university is that, in practice, almost all lecturers are researchers and, at the same time, teachers. I think this should continue. However, there is a need to progress in terms of flexibility because there may be cases of lecturers who are much better teachers than researchers and they should not be forced towards a balance, and the same thing can happen in the opposite sense. However, I insist, it is very good that there are communicating vessels between teaching and research.

Is there not a certain impression, however, that teaching is the little brother of research?

Indeed, because the system of incentives, both in the macro- and in the micro- sense, take greater account of the elements linked to research in regard to promotion. And on the other hand, elements linked to teaching are hardly taken into consideration. I do not mean that the elements of research should be disregarded for the purposes of promotion, rather that the teaching aspects should be taken more into account when promoting in order to achieve a higher quality of teaching. The goal is to demand the two from all teachers in order to have good researchers and good teachers, and not prioritize one over the other.

The system of incentives, both in the macro- and in the micro- sense, take greater account of the elements linked to research in regard to promotion. And on the other hand, elements linked to teaching are hardly taken into consideration

Is the transfer of knowledge from the university to society carried out correctly?

Both in Catalonia and in Spain, the transfer of knowledge is what we do worst, with the exception of universities that specialize in this, polytechnic universities. Therefore, this is one of the elements that we must enhance most. In Catalonia, in relation to this issue, we have experienced a special situation. We have gone from playing in the third or fourth research division to playing in the first division worldwide in this field. And what has always happened in such cases has happened to us: the last to arrive are the most purist, and that is why we concentrate on very basic and purist research, and perhaps we should focus more on the transfer of knowledge to society, which, in the end, is what funds us. We need to concentrate more on the transfer vector and being useful. We universities must not be like a convent, as if we don’t care too much about what happens outside our walls, and we need to think about how we can have a positive impact on society, whether it is on institutions, companies or civil society. We may not yet be sufficiently prepared and we certainly need specific units to perform this function and this practical translation, with more resources if required.

How can university dropout be combated?

University dropout can be combated in different ways. On the one hand, it is undeniable that there is a highly technical aspect, and it is that many degrees are available and it is normal that many students make a mistake in their choice. Having said that, however, there is another aspect that I always like to point out: teaching needs to be pampered in the first year, to make the students see that they have not chosen the wrong course and arouse their vocation. In this way, we strengthen the vocation of those who already have one and try to motivate those who have arrived somewhat by chance. I always say that a class is a bit like a theatre play, and therefore the quality of the play and the actor is basic to seduce students. And if the actors are not good enough, the students can easily lose their motivation, because the new generations have little patience.

So, should we provide the best actors in the first year?

All the best teachers should give special dedication to the first academic years; it should be almost mandatory.

What do you think of the rankings?

Rankings are positive because they act as incentives, but they have a perverse side to them because they can bring about certain actions whose sole purpose is to look good in the rankings. Therefore, you can end up doing things wrongly but which allow you to get good scores in the rankings. That said, there are many kinds of rankings and some are more intrusive than others. For example, business school rankings are so invasive that they tell you how to run your business school. Luckily, university rankings aren’t quite so invasive. There is also the case of some universities that don’t want to appear in the rankings because they don’t want or don’t need to, and they don’t want to be conditioned. In any case, the rankings are very useful because they provide a lot of information to students to be able to make better choices. Finally, it is also important not to become obsessed with the results. For example, in international rankings, it is very difficult to appear in the top 100, and it seems that if you don’t manage to, it is a poor result, when there are much more flexible private international universities with up to four times more funding, or public universities that have up to three times as much funding as Catalan universities.

In your book you also dedicate space to the system for electing a rector in Catalonia that you think could be improved.

The current system is highly dependent on the will of the people, their good faith and fate. The fact that in order to become rector you must be a member of the university community greatly impedes the rector, because he or she usually becomes rector through agreements with the PDI, the PAS and the students, and this already conditions him/her a lot, right from the outset. If a rector wants to effectively govern, it is possible he or she may not get the votes for a second term. The electoral system, therefore, is scarcely innovative and hardly disruptive, because changes generate resistance and, on top of that, many times those who govern universities are the ones who put up the most resistance to change. Perhaps it would be positive to move towards a more meritocratic model or a mixed system in which the candidate’s professional project and curriculum would weigh heavily. But few of us are in favour of this.

The fact that in order to become rector you must be a member of the university community greatly impedes the rector, because he or she usually becomes rector through agreements with the PDI, the PAS and the students, and this already conditions him/her a lot, right from the outset

What advice would you give to the future rector of UPF?

I have always recommended that all UPF rectors, and I can say that we have always had good ones, should have two qualities: patience and courage. It is the perfect match between being ambitious to drive transformative projects, but always keeping in mind the need to reach agreements and talk to a great many actors in order for them to come to fruition. Sometimes, there are people who are very brave but very impatient, and there are people who are good negotiators but in the end they lack courage.